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Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem?
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Andre


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Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 36
Localisation: Virginia

PostPosted: Thu 10 Apr - 13:26 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

PublicitéSupprimer les publicités ?
Finally saw a pic of the new lead screw. It's an improved design compared to the ball screw. There is no more over defining support bearing at the top! By doing this they probably don't have to leave the nut screws loose anymore in order to avoid z wobble (which IMHO was not a very elegant solution on the ball screw printers and confused the users...I almost tightened them up which would have caused binding)
This is good engineering ... Same if not better accuracy AND reduced cost. 


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smile


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Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu 10 Apr - 17:24 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

@pilou74


"Then, the shit hit the fan... ;("


Well it all started when you have to wait 2 weeks for reply from their email.


"I cannot agree with you regarding the info you ask them : they cannot tell us what brands, what references they use to build their machine ! Do you imagine you asking to apple these details ?.... Come on... Be honest : you couldn't get those details. 
So it seems fair. "


Last time I checked the LM8UU bearing were 8$ from china, and 40$ SKF, NMB etc. I'm not asking for part numbers, but for brand names. I want to know if reputable brand name parts are being used like IGUS, SKF, NMF etc. It's not hard for somebody to buy the printer write part numbers and publish them. It's not a problem. 


A problem is when you get no reply to such inquires or better yet get banned for asking this. I'm not going to pay 1600$ for a printer built like chinese drill press with low quality parts etc. I want to know what I pay my money for.


Now that they removed the IGUS bearings, ballscrew, perhaps they even will use some cheap steppers cheaper ones than 80$ for 10 steppers. What will guys pay 1600$ for then? A brand name ZORTRAX?


The prints from the printer are good, that is why I'm interested in it. I never count on support. I fix things myself. But to be treated like an idiot is another thing when Rafal said "we do not want you to buy our printer" 


Since when in democracy I'm being regulated what I can / can't buy? Maybe following this analogy BOSCH should say, that "you ask too many questions, we will not sell to you"


"asking to apple these details ?"


1. Zortrax is not Apple
2. I like oranges better


"But anyway, we know now the change doesn't impact the quality of the prints so it is alright, we all can drop the subject. "


I do not agree, after it's been like 6 months etc, and it will be possible to compare quality with ball screw printer vs. trapezoidal screw, then
we will be able to compare quality. For all I know the printers with trapezoidal screw can start showing problems within months.


"Don't worry about saying anything you wish on any subject here in this forum. There is no control or censorship here. 
  
And, as already said, most of your points are very valuable and interesting to discuss. Let us know when you buy your next printer. 

(And make a review in the right category of the forum : "other printers", that will be interesting)"


Thanks. I now am investigating the spiderbot printer, seems very nice. I may pull the plug on this one. I will upgrade it in the future to better motors / drivers etc. The creator responds within a day himself to emails and is listening for suggestions. YOU CAN'T BEAT THAT.
Every company tries to save money on products so to get better quality cheap you have to use components you choose yourself. Not everyone has CNC access etc. But changing steppers, drivers, changing to 32bit CPU is doable. Now 32bit CPUS are getting into rep-rap printers. 


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smile


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Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu 10 Apr - 17:29 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Andre wrote:
Finally saw a pic of the new lead screw. It's an improved design compared to the ball screw. There is no more over defining support bearing at the top! By doing this they probably don't have to leave the nut screws loose anymore in order to avoid z wobble (which IMHO was not a very elegant solution on the ball screw printers and confused the users...I almost tightened them up which would have caused binding)
This is good engineering ... Same if not better accuracy AND reduced cost. 



Printers is a precision device, I don't think that screws are the way to go. Z wobble would not exist if the printer chassis would be straight, if that's not possible then top bearing should be removed with whole mounting point. They could do that. But no - they changed to cheap trapezoidal screw.


Why bother with designing with ball screw in the first place ? Let me answer - to get money from kickstarter ! Since then 


"@pilou74


"Then, the shit hit the fan... ;("
"


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Andre


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Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 36
Localisation: Virginia

PostPosted: Fri 11 Apr - 00:08 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Smile, what printers did you have in the past and what is your current one?

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smile


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Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Fri 11 Apr - 11:30 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

As I said in other thread I had a reprap but quality was just not there, then a friend showed me zortrax so I know how it looks and works.
I just don't want to get stripped down version.


An upgrade is when you improve something, and that is not what is being done, it's downgrade since components are replaced by cheaper ones. You have to admit the designer that made zortrax used ball screw for a reason, but the "management of the company" just want to make more money like always.


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Andre


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Joined: 29 Dec 2013
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Localisation: Virginia

PostPosted: Fri 11 Apr - 13:11 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

I disagree completely and your comment about the chassis shows me that you have no idea what screw runout induced z wobble is.... but considering your argumentation history it would be wasted effort on my side to try to convince you. 
All I will say is this...I'm an engineer in a production plant and changing designs to more cost effective solutions with absolute identical or even improved functionality is the absolute norm and a company would be stupid not to do that.


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jayceekeys


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Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Fri 11 Apr - 13:16 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Okay  + 1

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pilou74


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Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 103
Localisation: Paris

PostPosted: Fri 11 Apr - 23:38 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Okay  Andre +1


I am technical development director in a big company (30'000+ employees) and for us, cost saving rhymes with quality consistency and services improvements.


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Pioo


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Joined: 13 Apr 2014
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Localisation: Poland

PostPosted: Sun 13 Apr - 13:03 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Where I can find some pictures of new Z-axe??

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Andre


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Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 36
Localisation: Virginia

PostPosted: Sun 13 Apr - 13:12 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Here...


http://zortraxfans.xooit.eu/t26-Plate-Not-Stopping-after-1st-Hit-with-Extruder.htm


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smile


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Joined: 09 Apr 2014
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Sun 20 Apr - 10:24 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Like I said company saves 1$ per cheaper bearing x 1000000 = million more more money for them. But then the user has to replace bearings themselves in a new appliance and since the user buys at retail price it's way more expensive for a user. 

 
Quote:
 Planned obsolescence or built-in obsolescence[1] in industrial design is a policy of planning or designing a product with a limited useful life, so it will become obsolete, that is, unfashionable or no longer functional after a certain period of time.[1] Planned obsolescence has potential benefits for a producer because to obtain continuing use of the product the consumer is under pressure to purchase again, whether from the same manufacturer (a replacement part or a newer model), or from a competitor who might also rely on planned obsolescence.



It sounds like you wan't this to be the norm despite prices for things that should have quality parts in them, if you make from china quality cheap parts then sell at cheap china price, nobody will complain. Changing parts silently is not what reputable, respectable companies do. Or does anyone knew about z-screw change until users began posting about this on zortrax forum, and forum was closed?


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Andre


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Localisation: Virginia

PostPosted: Sun 20 Apr - 17:49 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Um... Then don't buy it and leave us alone, maybe?

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Kyle


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Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 69
Localisation: Colorado

PostPosted: Sun 20 Apr - 17:55 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Andre wrote:
Um... Then don't buy it and leave us alone, maybe?




Okay


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jayceekeys


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Joined: 31 Mar 2014
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sun 20 Apr - 20:22 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Okay


Very politely put Andre Smile probably a lot more eloquently put than the words I had thought of lol


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pilou74


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Joined: 29 Dec 2013
Posts: 103
Localisation: Paris

PostPosted: Mon 21 Apr - 12:39 (2014)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem? Reply with quote

Andre wrote:
Um... Then don't buy it and leave us alone, maybe?



Okay
+1


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PostPosted: Today at 12:27 (2017)    Post subject: Z screw change from ballscrew to trapezoidal - problem?

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